What if this is 'the fall'?

Have you ever wondered if it’s just too late?

Some say our reaction is about 30 years overdue. That we never stood a chance to begin with - and now it’s just worse.

So many people have given up. I see this and I hear this every day.

People I used to know are empty shells. Mere shadows of what they used to be - just trying to get by. Incapable of deep thought. Their grand plans and dreams long gone. I’d say like cattle, but I have recently had more understanding from cattle than my fellow men. They are just not there anymore.

Jokes about the end of the world as we know it in everyday conversation, normalizing the horror of climate catastrophy. Total powerlessnes. Inability to think different.

Back in the 2012 I used to think I had it hard, but I could at least engage people in discussion. Now they can’t even comprehend what I’m saying…

I got over it. I’ll always be here, for I know nothing else that makes sense and gives life meaning. But it is still so sad to witness all these things…

So. What are your thoughts? Is it the fall some people from TVP were waiting for to start rebuilding the world? If so then are we prepared for such scenario?

I think it’s all relative. I think for example we’re becoming redundant because in #nl there are many organizations implementing what we have been talking about for about 10 years, that includes the Dutch government.

Also many of the innovations featured in Addendum and Moving Forward have become a mainstream reality.

I think we can still play a role, by providing the holistic view and combining all these trends into the RBE direction.

But it’s interesting that your experience is the total opposite. When I talk about these things, people are like “aren’t we working on that already?” :nerd_face:

I see it as more of a greenwashing propaganda for capitalism globally. If you look closer you usually see cutting cormers or outright fraud. And yeah, dutch government is really progressive when it comes to a lot of stuff.

I might have become more cynical over the years but when I saw with my own eyes how the system cheats us over and over again and we believed it and did basically nothing substantial to address the issues… Well… Let’s say I believe when money gets abolished. Up until then the game always beats us.:frowning:

To some degree it is indeed maintaining the current system as long as possible and it doesn’t go far enough in terms of resource management and putting science at the center of decision making. But it’s going into the right direction.

Changes like these take time. At least people (over here) are not sceptical anymore about technological unemployment, finite resources and sustainable energy sources. There are still some obstacles, but compared to 10 years ago it’s a big step :slight_smile:

It’s still a race against time, since relevant action against climate change has been delayed for far too long.

Well I still have some faith with the govt ever since I learned they started preparing for coal and gas shortages on EU level and are supposed to have a viable plan by 5 jan 2022. Also they are doing something to prepare for water shortages and acknowledge it’s gonna happen by 2025. That’s why I even bother helping them instead of going full prepper or something… :stuck_out_tongue:

But I feel it’s going to be rough and people are already helpless. I wish I could do more. i just feel so small you know?

Well considering the state of TZM, we are indeed small again. I was hoping the forum would bridge the clustered movement we developed over the years. And that the forum would assist in staying focused on topics. But we’re 6 months in and signups have halted, no continued promotion by others on social media and such. So this seems like a dead end as well.

Luckily, like I said, there are more people working on these things with also more results. So I don’t feel very bad about it. But I do wish TZM would become more like those organizations.

I promised some people that I would support the forum 100% for one year and then evaluate. But if it remains like this, or if it gets worse, then by the end of this year I see no need to continue this project and I might simply join other organizations in #nl. It’s sad, but at some point this becomes a waste of time if the community doesn’t step in. That’s the only demotivational thing I can say about TZM :stuck_out_tongue: Other than that I’m hopeful for humanity as a whole.

Oh well. Good to know the DEAD-line of TZM. It was a great adventure though. Maybe we indeed stood against the forces of nature. :slight_smile:

Well, if the forum dies, the movement doesn’t die. We still have the Facebook groups, Reddit communities, private TZM webpages, etc.

The forum was my attempt to bridge those groups and form a single place of discussion, bridging those communities. That way we can organize ourselves better and not talk in our own bubbles with limited scope and impact. We also have the TZM Discord and probably many more things like that. So by no means that’s the “DEAD-line” for TZM. Just for this project and probably my involvement with TZM :slight_smile:

Well we don’t even have transparency of the forum costs or where it is hosted or anything.
Forum should be made more autonomous in regards of complete control. Tutorials of hosting, rehosting transparency of most actions and documentation.

And it’s only the forum itself that is lacking. The whole movement material like TZM Defined needs to be made more clear and straight forward and there won’t be issue with involvement.

First everything should be open to public, if you want the public to be aware of you and engage.

The costs of the server is 25 euros per month (excluding the DNS and mail costs) and it’s hosted at TransIP. This is not secret information :slight_smile: I’m not sure what you mean with complete control. You want to give anyone root access on the server and admin rights on the forum? I guess you don’t mean that, but if you do, here’s my answer :slight_smile: That’s not necessary or a desired setup at all. We’re dealing with private information (IPs, email addresses, real names). And we want to have a stable, private and reliable service. To secure that goal we need to have a group that is able to perform those tasks, but that’s not something everyone can or should do. So what do you exactly mean with full control and what do you suggest?

We do have a Gitlab for the forum. Where the configuration management (Ansible) is hosted and documented. Is that what you mean? The people that need access to that have access. But most of them have no time or sufficient interest to involve themselves on that level. Setting up Discourse is by the way documented by the respective community. As well as hosting in general. So I’m not sure what kind of transparency you’re missing. We will not make the Gitlab public. This is because we also store sensitive information in there. It is encrypted, but with symmetric keys, so a brute-force is doable and that would expose passwords.

I agree! For that we e.g. can set up our own YouTube channels to explain the train of thought. I will do so this year with “Zeit-Talks”.

Registration is open :slight_smile: And the forum is readable, even without an account. How can the forum be more open than that?

Simplicity, clear guides, explanations and notes to the point of absurdity is what is needed.
I know that since I’m delve in many projects and did involved in some and that’s exactly what is needed everywhere. Nothing should be left undocumented if it can be documented and should be done precisely from the pov (point of view) of a person that you consider contributor or public.

There are a lot of communities that simply scratch the surface of documentation and tells you that it’s fully documented. I haven’t come across a project yet, that would be finally documented to the point of no questions. That should be the goal and technically it’s achievable.

Telling that there is a community that is taking care of it and not point the clear resource already tells you that everything is too ambigious already. That’s not how you treat contributors. It’s an old way since the Linux project and the like started. It actually never worked and was brute forced till today. And you can see now how “well” the Linux project actually goes technically with all the Kernel 27.8 million lines of code to satisfly the duplicated market devices. That’s unmaintanable.

If you know something you should become the expert guide and write that guide, even the most obvious parts and your thoughs. That’s how you get other people to research and improve.

If you want improvements, everything should feel as if you are guiding everyone by hand. Simply and in details and let the community do the rest over the time and decide what has been done correctly or not, makes sense or not.

If you can’t guide “by hand”, you should at least reference and show where your knowledge stems from at any turn. And I mean linking courses and learning resources that would require to understand things and pointing out your own personal notes. A development and more scientific mode is what is needed for TZM. Everything should be done simple and with a posibility to test things.

Well at least that’s how I’m going about my own future projects and things.

I know that there is Discourse forum, I know that there is Github or GitLab repository. It’s not enough to point out these things as you can see.

To make TZM community to work is really devastatingly hard work itself. I’m not even suprised that this forum haven’t become active and even hope that this forum won’t be hype based. It’s a good thing that there not many people considering that, nothing is clear in the eyes of the newcomers.

It might not be for you, but it’s clearly for me and most of the other community members.

The needs for such forum, what are the resources needed CPU cores, HDD/SSD, RAM, general load information of the server are also what is absolutely crucial to inform such community.

Even I could have found a way to minimize the costs by simply being at the right time and looking at this information when I was considering closing a 7 years virtual private server plan based in Europe. https://www.hostinger.com/ at one point, did provide enormously cheap long term VPS that was as well of at least moderate quality. Haven’t had any problems setting up a high load gaming server.

If I knew any of this information I’d quickly extend the life of the this Discourse forum (even if Discourse itself is based on technologies that are actually not that stable or long term)

CPU 6 Cores, 6 GB RAM, 6 TB Bandwidth

I used to have a favour of getting ~90% of discount for this kind of server, and it would have been at around 10-15€ per month for around 7 or more years. Then you could transfer to another hosting to preserve the costs as low. But even now it’s 70%. I assume there is no need for this kind of server to run Discourse, so it’s just an example.
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Please correct me if I’m wrong. So your concern is basically that no one else is informed about how to host this forum? This is a valid concern. And I have contacted people about this since the beginning of the forum idea emerged, people with the right background and personal trust to strengthen the @admins team.

But don’t worry, if I get hit by a bus, there will be others able to step in. However, they might not have the same enthusiasm and interest as me. But it’s for sure not a one man show. I’m trying to convince these people to join, but this is not as easy as it sounds. Since these people have limited time, like most people. And are already doing other things for TZM as well. However, managing this forum is also not that time consuming either. The Discourse people maintain a rock-solid product. The same goes for Jitsi.

I think you overreact a bit about the need for guides and educate more people to become technically skilled. This is not the goal of the forum. Sure, we need skilled people that can maintain the technical side of the forum. But with all due respect, we’re not Kahn academy where will we write courses and stuff. People with a relevant and mature IT background and sufficient personal trust can jump aboard. There are about 4 candidates in total. But, time is limiting them. I also don’t know if they are interested in maintaining this forum, since activity and adoption is still very low.


So in summary. What I said about abandoning the project in December if this forum remains as it is, has nothing to do with technical assistance or budgets. Those are really not the concern. :slight_smile: My evaluation in December will be based on if I still find it worth the time, money and effort to spend on it based on how active the community interacts with the forum. Because let’s be real here. Most topics here are posted by me. After 6 months there should be more activity. I know you and several others have been very active and that’s why you e.g. are in @trust_level_4. But most people seem to prefer the Discord or Facebook/Reddit groups. If that’s what people prefer, then that’s how it is going to be. I cannot force people and even if I could I wouldn’t :stuck_out_tongue:

I really much like the forum, but at the moment it mostly feels like a “Kees forum” the past 6 months. December is still far away, so no need to worry. I’m just being open about my concerns and intentions. Hopefully that will spark people to appreciate the forum more and become more active and promote it.

And by the way, if I step out, it doesn’t mean the forum will end or that I will block everyone. If needed I can always help out from time to time. But at some point you just have to evaluate if certain goals are reached after a year and if not, is it still worth it. And if you want to take over the forum, then that can be discussed. However, there are more stakeholders out there that want to have their say about that. So this is not a promise. But it might be a good idea to read up on containers and Linux system administration if you want to be a candidate :slight_smile:

Kees you do a great job and I thank you. When starting my new life, I’m going to dedicate alot of time to activism. 1. Live a more natural life without out money where possible and tell people how easy it is. 2.spreading the word of pj and others who think the same. 3. Set up sharing communitys (food, tools, resources etc) I will direct people here but I myself are still a bit confused by the forum, not knowing where to post etc. Can I be of any help or is there anything I can do?

Sounds interesting! Especially the part where you want to work without money. I myself find it hard to do anything without a money exchange. Some things are for free of course. I’ll be looking forward to know more about your strategy. It’s okay to use money of course. It’s the system we have today and get things done usually involves money. Just a sidenote, please don’t make your life and activism harder than it may already be. Get results with the least resistance from the system. In my experience I can get more done that way.

About where to post. All of this you mention should be in #activism. Depending on the topic you can put it in one of the subcategories. All these subcategories have an “about” description pinned at the top. But I guess it speaks for itself. #activism:reports is for chapter reports. #activism:support is for questions about activism or request resources. #activism:projects is for projects. And #activism:events is to talk about events :slight_smile:

Until we get to producing stuff and moving it around in moneyless closed system (like the one that is currently developed with Rust somewhere) I think you ought not bother being overzealous about money. Yep. It’s the great evil. It spoils people and poisons their minds. But it’s just like Facebook - convenience we refuse to let go because we have nothing better (nothing else?) at the moment. You’ll need to live in two separate mental realities simultaneously for different people to be understood - the one with money and the one without.

Yes, it’s going to be hard as we are in the system. The first and major thing is I’m not going to is be a slave anymore! I will not exchange my time on this earth for ‘money’ anymore! I will exchange my help for what I need. I will also stop buying shit I don’t need!
I have an opportunity to go on this journey and Share my experience with others as a tool to show it can be done and what is out there for others to follow. What else can we do? 42 years I have felt ‘uncomftable’ knowing something is wrong with my life. Playing this stupid game wishing I wasn’t! For 10 years now I have been saying “i just need enough money to set myself up so I don’t need money again!” But now I realise the system won’t let that happen, and I can’t take the pain and discomfort anymore. This system is burning the people and planet and I will spend the rest of my days trying to change the direction for our grandchildren!

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I so much feel you bro… Money sickens me. I wanted to say you shouldn’t get yourself into trouble because of that, but then I’d be hypocrite. I’m getting into trouble for questioning money and power all the friggin’ time. It’s just too hard a temptation to resist. Watch out and good luck! :smiley_cat:

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